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Rat
Okay, I got a lesson again last nite on Ronin/Gator Bait. Don't drop with a mid range Dragon config on an open map when the other side has a missle boat. eek13.gif Not only did I get a lesson on knock vs. knock down (Thanks again Didy and Sliv tongue.gif )but I also got a lesson on what not to do when a missle boat locks on you. Is there anything you can do to break missle lock other than putting terrain between you and the incoming missles? I usually try to move to put a mech from the opposition in the path of the incoming but last nite there weren't enough of us. That Argus just wasn't cooperating by coming into brawling range. If you increase your velocity from side to side with respect to the missle launching mech will that increase your chances of breaking lock?
Sliverthorn
Your best chances are to a) start twisting your roso and turning radically and b ) once they're close superturn.


A has a chance to make them missif you they have locked onto a single part of your mech (similiar to how i legged you via missiles last night) and b will work no the vast majority of missilessim[ply becauwe they can't turn that quickly and if done right will hit the ground where you would have been.


Hope that helps.


Sliv.
Rat
Hmm....superturn, that's moving the mouse and the joystick at the same time in a turn?
Hazmat
Only if both are mapped to turning the mech.
Rat
I've been experimenting with the mouse button on my X36. Seems to work I just had to restrict the movement to the horizontal. At first I ended up pointing up in the sky in straight into the ground while turning ohmy.gif
Wadmaasi
The only way to break a lock is to interpose terrain (even trees work) or a 'Mech. If you have ECM keep it on when you've gained cover, but if you don't then turn your radar off.
Didymus
QUOTE (Wadmaasi @ Jun 5 2004, 01:30 PM)
The only way to break a lock is to interpose terrain (even trees work) or a 'Mech. If you have ECM keep it on when you've gained cover, but if you don't then turn your radar off.

You can also blow up the 'Mech, shoot off the missile racks, or throw off their aim sufficiently that they lose their lock. POW.gif
Rat
QUOTE (Wadmaasi @ Jun 5 2004, 05:30 PM)
The only way to break a lock is to interpose terrain (even trees work) or a 'Mech. If you have ECM keep it on when you've gained cover, but if you don't then turn your radar off.

You can turn ECM off and on?
7th Seal
kind of related to the subject, what do you do to avoid missles once they have obtained lock and have been released? ive tried usin the jjs to mislead them but i cant do it to the same effect that i have seen it done. i know its easier in lighter chassis, but what can you do to minimize damage besides the obvious tactics?

btw, a good way to break a lock is by running behind a teammate before the missles are launched. the radar begins the lockon procedure on whatever mech is under the retical so it makes sense really
Wadmaasi
QUOTE (Rat @ Jun 5 2004, 02:14 PM)
You can turn ECM off and on?

Turning off your radar turns off ECM.

What you need to know about ECM (and this is covered somewhere in and amongst the guides, though I don't remember where) is that it makes getting a lock on you easier, though it also makes the missileer lose their lock on you faster when you do manage to cut their line of sight. Comprende, compadre? (=
Wadmaasi
QUOTE (7th Seal @ Jun 5 2004, 02:18 PM)
i cant do it to the same effect that i have seen it done.

Me neither, and I've been playing for a Long Ass Time. /=
Didymus
QUOTE (7th Seal @ Jun 5 2004, 02:18 PM)
kind of related to the subject, what do you do to avoid missles once they have obtained lock and have been released?

I run behind cover of any kind asap. Or I wait until they get close and superturn, which usually blocks most of them. If you're in a fast enough mech, you can just run laterally to the direction that the missiles were launched from, and they'll pound into the ground behind you.
No Guts No Glory
QUOTE
kind of related to the subject, what do you do to avoid missles once they have obtained lock and have been released?


HIde behind the fattest mech you can find. tongue.gif
Tamaraw
If one hear's the *beep* *beep* sound ... make cetrain where the shot is coming from. Adjust range and find cover if possible to avoid getting hit. If getting hit is immenent, torso twist and jump (if possible) to make it impact the less critical area of the mech (ie. distribute damage).

It really bogs me when someone traverses a location w/ lots of trees, ojbects or even mechs. I get to lose my missile lock and have to restart the locking process again. For light mechs, sharp turns makes it harder to make a lock.

On rare occasions, when hiding behind a cover (out of direct fire return fire) w/ low slope ... try shutting down or crouching (i use shutting down as works even while on the move). This makes the missiles adjust its angle a little more and hope its a sharp drop that will lead the missiles to hit the cover instead.
TigMaster
"NOOB NEWS FLASH" >>>>>>> This won't break a missle lock but it sure makes me (da noob) feel better about having to take that hit. First off lets assume you see the launch (if not then you need to find it quickly) and have no chance of putting dirt between you and the missle salvo, secondly you are moving and not stationary. Now run straight at the the missles as fast as your mech will carry you. When those missles are three quarters of the way to the intended target (you) bend your upper torso over (you are still running at max throttle) and get your head as close to the ground as it will go. The missles will generally either scatter across the backside of your mech depending on their trajectory, hit you across the shoulders, or miss altogether. In all cases the damage is spread to areas that when your mech is erect and fighting are not prime target areas easily hit by weps fire. Now here's the fun part, when you straighten up the missle shooter is the first thing you see so plant a face full of alpha smack on that dude and then exit the area.

Tig biggrin2.gif
Didymus
Hehe, I like the way that trick sounds.

Just hope the boater has no buddies...
Gwydion
To follow up on Wad's explanation of advanced sensors:

From the original MW4 Vengeance reference manual:
QUOTE
Advanced Sensors
Some BattleMechs are capable of mounting advanced sensors that offer additional capabilities.  These include the Beagle Active Probe (BAP) and the Guardian ECM.  The BAP increases the active sensor range and decreases missile lock time.  The drawback is that is also decreases enemy lock-on time because it emits such a strong signal.

Conversely, the Guardian ECM is essentially a defensive weapon because it provides your BattleMech with a Stealth mode by decreasing the range in which your BattleMech is detectable.  Guardian ECM also reduces the effectiveness of a NARC beacon if one hits you.  Unfortunately, just as with the Beagle Active Probe, the Guardian ECM emits a strong signal and makes missile-lock for enemy units easier.  If your BattleMech has both a BAP and a Guardian missile, lock-on time is reduced.  However, even though you have Guardian ECM, you can also give yourself away if you fire up your Jump Jets or your heat level is above the 50 percent mark on the heat scale.  Therefore, you should use these advanced sensors wisely and sparingly.


TRM4 says this about the electronics:

QUOTE
ECM: Electronic Countermeasures reduces enemy radar detection range. Extremely valuable for scouts, snipers and insurgency units. Units with passive sensors engaged will not see ECM equipped units on their radar, and will not be able to lock on or access damage. Extremely useful for approaching enemy emplacements undetected. While it can render units more difficult to detect, it reduces the time required for an enemy to obtain missile lock-on. While it's benefits may not be immediately obvious when piloting an equipped mech, it's effect is clear to see when facing ECM equipped enemy units.

QUOTE
BAP: Beagle Active Probe increases radar range from 1000 meters to 1200. Units equipped with BAP will be able to detect shutdown enemy units, although only within 100 meters. Like the ECM, it reduces enemy lock on time by 30% and should be used with caution in missile heavy environments. Extremely useful for scouting or missile equipped mechs. It can sometimes be useful for sniper operations by allowing units equipped with long range weapons to engage stationary targets well beyond visual range.

From Grendel's Newbie Tips and Tricks Guide:
QUOTE
ECM
Cuts down the range at which enemy sensors can see you. Standard sensors see ECM at 500 m, BAP sees ECM at 800 m. DECREASES enemy LRM lockon time when they're trying to kill you. VERY useful on pretty much any mech. Keeps sniper/support mechs hard to find, and helps brawler/harassers sneak in.

BAP (Beagle Active Probe)
Increases sensor range vs standard mech from 1000 m to 1200 m. Decreases your lock time with your LRMs versus enemies, but also decreases lock time for enemies trying to kill you. Good for fire support mechs or scouts. Basic rule of thumb: LRMs take 3 seconds to lock on. Reduce by 30% if YOU have BAP, and reduce again by 30% for EACH of BAP and/or ECM on your target. ECM doesn't help you lock on, but it does hide you, so you might get a free shot on the poor, unaware sucker.... Note that none of this takes effect if you are passive, as your ECM and BAP turn off when your radar does.

While we're on the topic: You MUST have your radar ON to get a missile lock with ANY guided missile.

Truncheoneer's MW4Online Newbie Superguide offers this analysis:
QUOTE
ECM and BAP -


Two electronic devices are available: The ECM (Electronic Counter-Measures) and the BAP (Beagle Active Probe). A few Mechs can carry both, most can carry one or the other, and a few can carry neither. The following forum thread discusses them: http://www.mw4online.com/forums/showthread...=&threadid=2191. Kyle Reece has posted a lot of very enlightening data. However, as you?ll see in the thread, there are still a few questions lingering about just how they work, especially in tandem. Note that even the game developers contradicted themselves in the manual and the MechLab.


More info on this, from Roadkill:

"ECM does not affect how soon an equipped Mech detects another Mech.
"BAP does not affect how soon an equipped Mech is detected by another Mech.
"Neither has any effect if your radar is off.
"IFF has no effect on radar detection at all.

- KD~Roadkill


The contradiction noted in the Superguide stems from the Mechlab description of ECM which reads:
QUOTE
Electronic Counter-Measures (ECM)
ECM is a defensive unit added to a 'Mech's sensor system.  It decreases enemy sensor range and increases enemy missile lock-on time.


Electronics aside, on the subject of avoiding missiles that already have a lock, it's been my observation that missiles make their best course corrections early in their flight when they are still traveling relatively slowly. They don't adjust well at the end of their flight. Try to dodge perpendicularly to their angle of approach just before they are about to hit you. If you time it correctly a large number of missiles will just plain miss and a bunch more will do the crazy 180 course correction thing and if they hit you at all the damage won't be concentrated in one spot.
Didymus
QUOTE (Gwydion @ Jun 7 2004, 02:07 PM)
To follow up on Wad's explanation of advanced sensors:

From the original MW4 Vengeance reference manual:
QUOTE
Advanced Sensors
Some BattleMechs are capable of mounting advanced sensors that offer additional capabilities.  These include the Beagle Active Probe (BAP) and the Guardian ECM.  The BAP increases the active sensor range and decreases missile lock time.  The drawback is that is also decreases enemy lock-on time because it emits such a strong signal.

Conversely, the Guardian ECM is essentially a defensive weapon because it provides your BattleMech with a Stealth mode by decreasing the range in which your BattleMech is detectable.  Guardian ECM also reduces the effectiveness of a NARC beacon if one hits you.  Unfortunately, just as with the Beagle Active Probe, the Guardian ECM emits a strong signal and makes missile-lock for enemy units easier.  If your BattleMech has both a BAP and a Guardian missile, lock-on time is reduced.  However, even though you have Guardian ECM, you can also give yourself away if you fire up your Jump Jets or your heat level is above the 50 percent mark on the heat scale.  Therefore, you should use these advanced sensors wisely and sparingly.

That thing there from the manual about JJ giving you away isn't true. Also, I haven't noticed whether or not the heat scale thing being about 50% giving you away works or not- I've never really noticed one way or the other, myself. Getting your hud shot out will make you lose your ECM, though.
Tamaraw
Why can't HUD shots take out BAP as well? MS is biased! biggrin2.gif
Gwydion
QUOTE (Didymus @ Jun 7 2004, 05:43 PM)
That thing there from the manual about JJ giving you away isn't true. Also, I haven't noticed whether or not the heat scale thing being about 50% giving you away works or not- I've never really noticed one way or the other, myself. Getting your hud shot out will make you lose your ECM, though.

I don't think jets automatically negate the ECM either. As for heating up, it seems to me that you don't lose your ECM protection until your visual starts to warp and you go into the red zone. You can often see BK's "light up" when they fire 4 ERPPC's.
Didymus
I've never noticed that. But then, I'm usually too busy popping them to notice what's happening to them on radar, or I'm within 500 meters anyway. wink.gif
Zephyr
bah i just superturn and jump bug when i get missle locked smile.gif
Didymus
Jump bug? eek13.gif
Mower
You can also fight missiles with aspect...track them visually and immediately place them on your flank/beam at 90 degrees perpendicular, when they reach reach ~200 meteres pull INTO them, IE inside their turn circle and there's a good chance they will land behind.
Tyrinon
Interesting. I'll give it a try later if possible.

BTW,

Welcome to the forums!!!
Mower
Hey thanks for the Welcome...been with MW since MW1! Never bothered too much with online MP though. Been with the Royal Terra Guard but inactive due to RL issues but getting back in now.

Thing about the missiles (LRMs and MRMs) is that they maneuver very poorly at terminal phase when their speed is maxed. They will zero out their line-of-sight early and pull "pure" pursuit, so that they leave little maneuver options at end-game. Beaming them doesn't work too with SRMs I find though. Also, of course, forget about fighting them with aspect in heavy mechs.
Crow
I don't think that we should be recommending superturning as a way to play online. You can make people pretty mad, and yes, superturning is cheating.

I normally just stand behind Card if someone gets a lock on me, have to show that fatherly love.
Xenthes
Why would superturning be considered cheating? Just seems to me to be a valid counter measure to avoid missile hits.
Gwydion
Superturning is (unfortunately) part of the game unless and until MekTek takes it out with MP2, as is rumored to be happening. I'm not a big fan of it either, but a.) I think Zeph was mostly joking around and b.) we had a Rocketmech academy so I don't think we can complain much about a simple mention of one of the inadvertent "features" of the game.

You've been pretty pissy lately Crow, adolescent hormones kicking in?
Mower
Unless there is a coding quirk or bug that allows unrealisticly high evasion of missiles by putting them on your beam, I see no problem with my technique. If that's considered "cheating" than so should be legging etc. NOTHING is "fair" about war: provided there are no code bugs being exploited, I will use any and all means to prevail. For example, if I can shoot you in the back I will, every time.
TigMaster
SUPERTURNING blink.gif
Gwydion
QUOTE (Mower @ Jul 30 2004, 09:12 AM)
Unless there is a coding quirk or bug that allows unrealisticly high evasion of missiles by putting them on your beam, I see no problem with my technique. If that's considered "cheating" than so should be legging etc. NOTHING is "fair" about war: provided there are no code bugs being exploited, I will use any and all means to prevail. For example, if I can shoot you in the back I will, every time.

He wasn't talking to you, he was talking to Zephyr.
Mower
"SUPERTURNING" ... I will look it up and come back.
Gwydion
Basically, in your Options screen you can enable your game to recognize input both from your joystick and your mouse simultaneously. If you use both at the same time to turn in a particular direction the game adds both inputs together and turns you at about double the normal rate for the chassis, hence "superturn". There are several discussions about it in the MWL CTF Ladder forum, but it may not be worth investigating too much as it is supposed to be eliminated by the new MekTek pack coming out in the relatively near future.
Crow
QUOTE (Gwydion @ Jul 29 2004, 05:40 PM)
You've been pretty pissy lately Crow, adolescent hormones kicking in?

Eh, um, what? blink.gif

I just get mad every time I try and shoot someone with the Flag who is superturning all over the freakin place and then I run with the Flag the way it is supposed to be done. I won't resort to superturning, i'm sure it is fun as rocketmech, but I still feel that if you have to superturn to get a capture, or aviod missiles, then you need to get better and stop cheating.
Mower
Superturning is a variation of an age-old theme, immature people with self-estime issues trying to compensate with cheating or work-arounds to "puff" themselves out. Another loop hole that ought to be closed.
Tamaraw
"Super turn" will be fixed in MekTek MP 2.
Corin
somebody (Crow) mentioned that flushing and shutting down work sometimes, but ive been able to avoid missiles by jumping into the air a bit, shutting down and then flushing while im falling, i dont know why, but sometimes the missiles go over or to the sides of me. might be a that jumping and shutting down would do the same thing, but im superstitous, so i do all three cause it worked right the first time.

note-this actually only works like a quater of the time, so if u do get hit, plz dont hunt me down, i did warn you...
moth
QUOTE (Rat @ Jun 5 2004, 02:52 PM)
Okay, I got a lesson again last nite on Ronin/Gator Bait. Don't drop with a mid range Dragon config on an open map when the other side has a missle boat. eek13.gif Not only did I get a lesson on knock vs. knock down (Thanks again Didy and Sliv tongue.gif )but I also got a lesson on what not to do when a missle boat locks on you. Is there anything you can do to break missle lock other than putting terrain between you and the incoming missles? I usually try to move to put a mech from the opposition in the path of the incoming but last nite there weren't enough of us. That Argus just wasn't cooperating by coming into brawling range. If you increase your velocity from side to side with respect to the missle launching mech will that increase your chances of breaking lock?

Well maybe its stupid, but, cant you just shutdown for a second ? You'll dissappear .from radar... it is workin on long distance

moth
Sandman
Scuse the bump, but I doubt anyone will actually care.

Today, I noticed a very interesting thing. I was in my Dragon, and the opposition was shooting off barrages of what I assume were ATMEs from extreme range.

I found [by accident] that I could dodge them if [at the very last few seconds before impact] I stopped my mech completely when previously running at max [103kph]. I also decided to stay put at one point and they fired off another barrage at me. At the last second, I crouched. They all missed. It was awesome. [Yes, they were locked. BEEP BEEP BEEP!]

There also seems to be some difficulty if I simply turn my torso from side to side really fast. I assume it's because the missiles are attempting to hit a specific body part rather than the mech as a whole.

Guess I need to test this out further.
Arrgghh!
QUOTE
Today, I noticed a very interesting thing. I was in my Dragon, and the opposition was shooting off barrages of what I assume were ATMEs from extreme range.

I found [by accident] that I could dodge them if [at the very last few seconds before impact] I stopped my mech completely when previously running at max [103kph]. I also decided to stay put at one point and they fired off another barrage at me. At the last second, I crouched. They all missed. It was awesome. [Yes, they were locked. BEEP BEEP BEEP!]


Long range barrages have a higher arc as they pass overhead. The larger the arc, the more inflexible the manuvering capacity is for the missiles. At closer range (within 700 meters), the missiles have barely any arc at all unless they are fired from a high location.

Also, the torso thing works against a lot of things including rockets, I sort of do it by instinct now, but it's hard when you don't want the arms on your argus blown off and at the same time you really don't want to get shot in the CT.

P.S: How do you get the name of the person who sumbitted a post that you qoute to appear over the quote box? You will have to pardon my slow wits.
Rat
If you use the "quote" button in the the upper right of every post it will put the name of the person into your post.
Azrael
QUOTE (Arrgghh! @ May 16 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE
Today, I noticed a very interesting thing. I was in my Dragon, and the opposition was shooting off barrages of what I assume were ATMEs from extreme range.

I found [by accident] that I could dodge them if [at the very last few seconds before impact] I stopped my mech completely when previously running at max [103kph]. I also decided to stay put at one point and they fired off another barrage at me. At the last second, I crouched. They all missed. It was awesome. [Yes, they were locked. BEEP BEEP BEEP!]


Long range barrages have a higher arc as they pass overhead. The larger the arc, the more inflexible the manuvering capacity is for the missiles. At closer range (within 700 meters), the missiles have barely any arc at all unless they are fired from a high location.

Also, the torso thing works against a lot of things including rockets, I sort of do it by instinct now, but it's hard when you don't want the arms on your argus blown off and at the same time you really don't want to get shot in the CT.

P.S: How do you get the name of the person who sumbitted a post that you qoute to appear over the quote box? You will have to pardon my slow wits.

Actually ATMs are extremely inaccurate and easily miss, they don't really lock. Unless the shooter keeps the rect on target until the missles start their downward dive (really about 3/4 of the way) they will basically all miss and then most still might. The arc has nothing to do with it.

LRMs are much harder to 'avoid' with your tactic, watch how they will maneuver to get you.
Gwydion
QUOTE (Sandman @ May 16 2005, 01:16 AM)
I found [by accident] that I could dodge them if [at the very last few seconds before impact] I stopped my mech completely when previously running at max [103kph]. I also decided to stay put at one point and they fired off another barrage at me. At the last second, I crouched. They all missed. It was awesome. [Yes, they were locked. BEEP BEEP BEEP!]


I think it's similar to this:
QUOTE (Gwydion @ Jun 7 2004, 02:07 PM)
Electronics aside, on the subject of avoiding missiles that already have a lock, it's been my observation that missiles make their best course corrections early in their flight when they are still traveling relatively slowly.  They don't adjust well at the end of their flight.  Try to dodge perpendicularly to their angle of approach just before they are about to hit you.  If you time it correctly a large number of missiles will just plain miss and a bunch more will do the crazy 180 course correction thing and if they hit you at all the damage won't be concentrated in one spot.


Whether it's a dodge or a stop, the best time to do it is right before impact when the missiles will have the least time to adjust their flight.
Azrael
yep, true
Rat
Nope. The best thing to do is run behind a team mate POW.gif
Gnosis
QUOTE (Rat @ May 16 2005, 02:02 PM)
Nope.  The best thing to do is run behind a team mate  POW.gif

iamwithstupid.gif

Or I guess you can reach frantically for the mouse trying to superturn. I still catch myself starting to do that once in a while. tongue.gif

Edit: Guess this is more about how to dodge missiles rather than how to avoid being shot at by them, but to keep people from getting a missile lock on you, weave back and forth behind a teammate. It'll break their lock or keep 'em from even getting one. wink.gif
Rat
On the flip side of this conversation. When you have a missle lock on a target, you can keep the lock if the taget goes behind another mech by lifting your reticule just before it crosses over the intervening mech and then dropping it back on the target when it is clear. Just don't leave your reticule off the target for too long or you will lose lock.
Arrgghh!
QUOTE
Actually ATMs are extremely inaccurate and easily miss, they don't really lock.


Unless you fire them from about 450 meters away, on open ground or what not, your almost garunteed a hit. Also, I swear that the arc counts. I have noticed a very distinct difference in the number of missile hits I've scored on somebody when I fired ATM's from closer range and no arc, the hit rates increased.

BTW: Still not getting this qoute thingy... sad.gif .
Gwydion
QUOTE (Rat @ May 16 2005, 06:20 PM)
reticule

I see this everywhere, and it bugs me.

Reticule = woman's handbag

Reticle = crosshairs
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