Okay, I know some weapons will create knock. Do some weapons have more "knock" than others? And how do I know which weapons create knock? As far as knock goes does the hit location determine which way the mech will get "knocked"? For instance if I see a mech twisting towards me and I hit the far side torso (the one farthest away from me), will the hit twist my opponent away from me?

Here's what little I know about knock. It is due almost entirely from damage, which is why the devs had to hard code the knock down on the RACs. So the bigger the hit the more the knock. Now I personally believe that hitting a side torso or arm produces more knock then a CT or leg shot but its all anecdotal evidence that I can't use to prove anything with.


Sliv.

Yup. Pretty simple equation. More damage = more knock. Weapon type, travel time, armor type, impact effects, etc. are all irrelevant.

I really don't think lasers should produce knock period, but I find it's always good to throw a large pulse on a 'mech in place of a LL, just for that constant fire/knock effect.

I haven't noticed being able to spin someone's torso around with any weapon other than the Arrow IVs. However, if the shot is big enough, you can spin their entire 'mech. Assuming they're standing still.

Does the weight of the target mech have any bearing? I've seen some assualts go down with what I thought was an arm shot and then some lights still running with a full on CT shot.

To me gnosis, they make the most sense. You'd thinnk that they would be shielded form impact of kinetic objets but a lasrt is just light that makes armor exploded off your mech. That ouwld seem to me to produce more knock then impacts.

well, here's the catch, Rat. Knock is seperate from knockdown. Knockdown you need a huge alpha to do it by yourself or you ned a lot of mechs pouring firepower into one mech. Where as with knock you can keep someone knocking, like gnosis said, with a single large pulse laser. Knock is independant of tonnage while knockdown is highly related to it.

So knock is knock. There isn't varying degrees of knock?

sure there are... but the level of knock is totally dependant upon the amoun of damage done. The only other modifier I can prove has an effect is Heavy Gyro which reduces knock as well as knockdown. But like I siad I generally aim for a side torso if I'm trying for knock.

Of course there are varying degrees of it. A pulse laser causes a little knock, an ERLL causes a little more, a Gauss Rifle produces more, and an Arrow IV produces a LOT. What we're saying is that the amount of knock (meaning how much your reticle/viewpoint is physically moved by the hit) is determined by the amount of damage the weapon does.

And, yeah... knockdown is a completely separate phenomenon. It's also determined by the amount of damage you take, but there's no such thing as amount of knockdown. Either you take enough damage to hit the 'trigger point' and you fall down, or you don't take enough and you stay on your feet. The 'trigger point' is set higher for larger 'Mechs - so it takes more damage to knock them down.

Or a well placed DFA...

Think I gotta grip on this one. Thanks everyone. In some cases I'm sure it was my aim, or lack of , that may of confused me.

The torso will only twist to the left from knock regardless of where it is hit IIRC.

So, Rat, did you get the gist of what we were saying after our demonstration tonight?

Yes, I was usually face down, but yes I got it. Next I have to work on grouping my weapons to knock while recycling the heavy weapon. Thanks for the help everyone

Not true. To a certain degree you can actually "fight" knockdown by steering into the damage. I recall one of the devs posting at DSC that the Force Feedback effects coded into MW4 make this easier to accomplish. Anecdotal evidence also contraindicates the "all or nothing" theory, as Sliv's 3CLBX20 Hauppy wasn't knocking my Thanny over last night with every alpha. So presumably the process goes: "damage received > meets required minimum > roll for knockdown > knockdown achieved > pilot recovery? > no > knockdown" kersplat.

And lasers make just as much sense for knock as anything else. Ever heard of a lightsail? Photons exert pressure. Photons packing enough energy to be a weapons-grade laser in the 31st century presumably exert lots of pressure. d=

Weapons Knock

A slight knock but continuous knock is good against snipers at extreme ranges (they are usually zoomed at this range and screen movement produced by the knock becomes very useful).

The lower the range to target ... a higher weapons knock weapons is preferred, as non zoomed mech could easily recover from a slight knock and even take a good alpha.

About knockdowns.

Why are CB's easily knocked down? Its weird, i've knocked it down using just 3LBX10's and a single HML Thor (not an extremely high alpha config). Geometrically, the CB looks as if it has a lower center of gravity and should have been more stable. Or mechs w/ low height gets face planted easier (ie. lights and some meds + the CB)?

And i don't know if this is true either, heavily damaged mech has a higher probability to go down than a fresh mech.

Is there a formula for knockdowns?

DFA has a formula for knockdown ... but i'm too lazy to find my book.

I noticed that .

Full hit > Damage, fall
Slight hit > Damage, no fall
"Lag miss" > Damage self, you fall, enemy stands
"Funny miss" > No damage to either person, enemy falls (I've done this one by jumping, and landing about 5 meters ahead of the enemy)





Nope.

Turd: "Anecdotal evidence also contraindicates the 'all or nothing' theory..."
That's a good point, and something I should have mentioned, but I think we may disagree a little bit on the mechanism involved.

My impression has always been that it's not so much 'steering into the damage' that makes a difference as much as it is what your 'Mech is doing when it gets hit. (although we may be talking about the same thing here) In other words, I don't think there's anything you can do after the impact to prevent a fall. I do think there's some sort of formula involved, but I think it has more to do with what speed your 'Mech is moving at, whether or not it's turning, what kind of terrain/slope/angle your 'Mech is on, and (perhaps) how far your torso is twisted off of the centerline.


Turd: "And lasers make just as much sense for knock as anything else. Ever heard of a lightsail? Photons exert pressure."
You're absolutely correct, but your reasoning is completely wrong.

Photons do exert pressure, but it's so slight (even at high energy levels) that the knock from that alone would be insignificant - which is why a true lightsail, in order to be practical and workable would have to be literally hundreds of miles across.

Lasers create knock because the energy from the laser transfers into the target, and instantly superheats it at the point of impact. Heat any material up enough and it becomes a vapor. Heat it to that level fast enough and the conversion from solid to vapor form is indistinguishable from an explosion. Explosions on the side of your 'Mech make the 'Mech move. Movement = knock.

I think the true mark of a good BI forum thread is that Wad and Wildcard start arguing and namecalling on said topic.

it's true. i've been in fights where me and the opponent both are in dire straight in the way of armor, and i've had 1, maybe 2 high knock weapons (mrm40's come to mind) and i've hit him at a side angle and he's fallen face first but it didn't kill him.

a catapult knocking a loki down with 2 mrm40s (or the 1 i had at the time, shooting ears=bad people) is kinda farfetched IMO. but it does happen. maybe it flies with Wad's pilot recovery and the direction you're facing when you get hit. if you're running straight on it takes quite a bit more, but from the back or the side it takes less.

an example being any human being, it's easier to push people down if you hit them from the side or from behind them.

This is just something i have noticed. But i belive knock and knockdown are related in some cases.

When your mech gets hit the torso twists, I have noticed this happen before, but when a mech get twisted past its torso twist range it knocks down.

IE thats why u see more cauldies knocked and fewer thannies.

I do believe there is a dmg point to but i think thats another way to knocksomeone down (ie why u hit them in the side torso.)

Wildcard-

Here is a link you might enjoy, discussing using lasers to propel craft/satilites into orbit.

Laser Propulsion

Talk about Knock!

Cool link, man. Thanks. That was interesting reading.

Oddly enough, Wad and I were talking about The Mote in God's Eye just the other night - and that's the first book I can remember reading where lasers-as-propulsion-system was used. In that book, the aliens utilized a giant bank of planet-based lasers to provide propulsion to a craft with a light sail to cross from one star system to another. The way they explained it, it was a pretty slow boat between the stars, but effective, with the craft gradually accelerating the entire way.

If I remember correctly, the two biggest weaknesses of that system were:
1. The trip took decades, and if something went wrong on the planet-of-origin and the lasers shut off, you were pretty much screwed.
2. Slowing the craft down when you got where you were going. (I think in the book the aliens used a fairly small lightsail to collect the energy from the lasers, and then deployed a giant one to slow themselves down with the light of the star in the system they'd travelled to)

About 15 of 'em.

if knock is related the the amount of damage, then explain the difference between the RAC2 and RAC5. Both do approximetly the same amount of damage per second, but the knock is much greater for RAC5 and nonexistant for RAC2. also, didnt mektek adjust the knock for the RAC2, so the knock must have a setting that can be adjusted as part of the weapon parameter.



wasnt the reason those triad aliens used the laser propulson was they had exhausted the non-renewalable resources of their planet through their cycles of war and prosperity.

Actually the knock from the racs is hardcoded due to the PR1 patch. It was changed due to the constant knock being put out by both the 2 and the 5.

Because knock is dependent on the individual projectile damage, then scales with the number of projectiles. That's why a CUAC2 does zero knock, and 8 CUAC2s do zero knock.


Sort of. In The Mot in God's Eye the only jump point out of the Mote System led into a star's corona, and the Moties never invented the Langston Field, so every ship they ever sent through the Alderson Point fried. It was like pouring ships into a black hole. In The Gripping Hand a new star ignites pretty close to the Mote System, which shifts the original "Crazy Eddie Point" as well as creating a new one that doesn't lead into a star.

Hey Wad, i think you meant 8 CUAC2s doing knock.

If I'd meant that, I'd've said that. d=

Very strange.... I've seen TODAY Thanatos torso beeing turned... lets say about 20-30 degrees with only lbx 10 from my bushii

moth