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Jester
There has been a running thread in the private forums about developing tactics to deal with organized
groups of jump snipers (a.k.a. Pop-Tarts). In order to draw in more comment from the outside world
I am starting this thread here.

First of all, this thread is not for rants about why you like or don't like pop tarts. It's a valid
game tactic, and even though, imho, I find it really annoying, I, and others would like to learn
to develop team tactics to cope with it.

The suggestion was made by Didymus that we hold dedicated practises to work on this project.
These practises would have two purposes, and I quote Didymus here:

QUOTE
I'd still love to find a strategy to beat pop-snipers without pop-sniping in return. Sooo... (kinda weird idea...) what if we ran a server where we had one team pop-sniping (5erll bk, gauss gladbag, you know the deal), and the other team trying anything and everything in developing countertactics and configurations. To speed up configuration development, the server would allow unlimited rejoins. I know that you may be thinking, "So? People are always trying to come up with ways of countering pop-snipers on open servers anyway." However, this would be much more organized- we'd have the pop-snipers providing feedback (what seemed effective to them, what seemed largely ineffective), and the counter-poppers would be sharing ideas, working on organizing tactics in certain ways, etc. Since many members of TB are frequently busy, we could open it up to people outside of TB but limit it to people who use the forums (password-protect and post the password on the forums). There could be an ongoing thread in the Mechwarrior Training Center (or Lobby, not that important where it is, really) that would be the universal feedback thread. We could also encourage people to post useful configurations in the Mechlab.

And this would also give people pop-sniping practice, so even if no really useful or successful tactics were developed, we would still benefit from the practice (yeah, we could just do that on the opens... but like I said, the pop-sniper feedback would be very useful.)


What do people think of this concept?

I for one, am all for it.

For eaxmple, one team I could think of would consist of:
One Lt. Gauss sniper, ( to snap shot them when they pop up)
One Inferno AGL boat (Pop tarts run hot - keep em hot and they can't pop)
and a couple of light fast jump capable "harrassers" to make the kills.

Please make your comments and suggestions.
Didymus
Easy there fella... one step at a time... though I have to admit I support the idea... rolleyes.gif
7th Seal
i think this is an interesting experiment. being an admitted "normal" sniper(novacat) and occasional poptart, i wouldnt mind bein on the "bad guy" team ph34r.gif. lemme know what time you come up with and such.

I play in VL, a league consisting of mostly sniper styles of play, and would like to know how to take the snipers out of their comfort zones as well(even if it means being smacked around with light guass and inferno agl's)

smile.gif
KanaK
I want to first give props to TB, I've found a lot of answers to my noob questions here.
Being a noob sniper/poptart here's my 2¢ tongue.gif

I've been roasted by AGL boats...very effective sad.gif The 2 that come to mind are the Glad and MarkII. The map was jungle. They just charged in straight in taking alphas ct then roasting the nest. I charged a Glad, and got em crit only to get popped by his flamers blink.gif

Another interestin tactic was a team had 3 scats packin either cuac2's or rac2's. I think it was cantina. They were always radar dark and always on the move. After scrambling for cover and a false sense of safety I'd get drilled from another angle.

Anyways just my 2¢.

Peace ph34r.gif
Hellsing
I agree with Jester regarding the annoyance of poptarts, valid tactic, although when players can do nothing else POW.gif

Being a run and gun kinda pilot I deal with em in two ways: frontal assault mostly with a victor LXPLS,CG,HVYG. use cover and jump in to the nest close up. Secondly would be pulse boat of some type, Scat or Ares flank em and make em pop for the rest of the team to finish.

Lateral movement difficult for em....

One last note once I outfitted a Warhammer full reflective 2 hvac 5 and stayed in the 950m range, no kills but the gave the Novas fits. Seemed to draw them off their game.
Rat
I seem to remember MP2 might have smoke rounds. Depending on the range, number of slots it takes up and all that fun stuff it might be handy to have to blind the static poptarts. Then the lights/mediums can get in close and deal with them.
Xiomburg
My two cents and then some change: ASS Guide
Diomedes
Although I think practicing is a good idea and anti-sniper practice is particularly important, I dont agree with Didymus or Jester that this should be a community wide activity. Its hard enough to organize anything with just TB folks, and we have everyone on voice comms. To try and do annything organized like drills or anything else with structure in an open setting is a bad idea. I think open discussion of techniques is fine and Im not for keeping our best tactics to ourselves. But any kind of practice is best kept within the group.

P.S. Jester you should think twice before you move private threads and pms to open forums. Didymus sent you something in a private post and you quoted him in an open forum without asking him. Thats just wrong.
Jester
QUOTE (Diomedes @ May 26 2004, 01:20 PM)
Although I think practicing is a good idea and anti-sniper practice is particularly important,
I dont agree with Didymus or Jester that this should be a community wide activity.
Its hard enough to organize anything with just TB folks, and we have everyone on voice comms.
To try and do annything organized like drills or anything else with structure in an open setting is a bad idea.
I think open discussion of techniques is fine and Im not for keeping our best tactics to ourselves.
But any kind of practice is best kept within the group.

Well, Dio, I will respectfully disagree.

We are supposed to be the Banzai Institute - a place of teaching.

To quote from the TB application form:

QUOTE
The Institute's mission is to assist in the development and progression of
MechWarriors, no matter what unit (if any) they are involved with.


I think we should offer to teach anyone who wants to learn.
Should we also have "private " anti-pop-tart practise? Heck yes!

As for the voice comm issue - that's a technical detail that nees to be addressed -
perhaps we could use the NBT voice comm server.

But frankly, for those like me, who need more than a couple of hours once a week
to be able to learn these techniques, I'll practise with anyone who wants to show up, TB or no,
as long as they will play by the "rules" of the practise.

If I could host these practises, I would, but I am on Dial-Up, so
that becomes impossible.

Let's find a way to make this all happen.
{DR} søkitumi
being a person who takes a 3rd person/poptart/hillhumper .... this is straight from the horses mouth...

there is no way to outwit a good 3rd person sniper, as they'll alwyas locate themselves with plenty of cover mechs as a shield and have a 2nd or 3rd position to fall back to.

with that said. here's a few tips to fighting snipers in open games (as league matches are a completely different situation). usually snipers run hot. do NOT be over aggresive, wait until they shoot once or twice to make an approach, as the 3rd or 4th successive shot will usually shut them down. ERL recycle is 4seconds, this is key, try your best to know when the sniper will refire, and have a faster refire weap to rock them, as much as u hate snipers - they hate missing due to being rocked more. also, use that 4 seconds to get your passive mech to cover closer... step by step ... before ya know it... you're in LBX territory. speed, ballistics, and brains will win in the end. snipers are patient.. so to beat them you must be more patient and smarter.

or hey... just n00b charge them, and hope they're lookin elsewhere.

-GBT3E/søkitumi
Didymus
QUOTE ({DR} søkitumi @ Jul 25 2004, 04:45 AM)
being a person who takes a 3rd person/poptart/hillhumper .... this is straight from the horses mouth...

there is no way to outwit a good 3rd person sniper, as they'll alwyas locate themselves with plenty of cover mechs as a shield and have a 2nd or 3rd position to fall back to.

with that said. here's a few tips to fighting snipers in open games (as league matches are a completely different situation). usually snipers run hot. do NOT be over aggresive, wait until they shoot once or twice to make an approach, as the 3rd or 4th successive shot will usually shut them down. ERL recycle is 4seconds, this is key, try your best to know when the sniper will refire, and have a faster refire weap to rock them, as much as u hate snipers - they hate missing due to being rocked more.  also, use that 4 seconds to get your passive mech to cover closer... step by step ... before ya know it... you're in LBX territory. speed, ballistics, and brains will win in the end. snipers are patient.. so to beat them you must be more patient and smarter.

or hey... just n00b charge them, and hope they're lookin elsewhere.

-GBT3E/søkitumi

Yeah, back when I used 3rd person, I would use it to see over cover (while running passive if I thought they had beagle) and sneak up on poptarts with lbx n such. I used a reflective armored/2clbx20+hmdl/ecm/jj thor to great effect against erll bks (and anything else boating lasers...). The best part is that after you kill the bk once, he'll come back for revenge and you can kill him again. biggrin2.gif The same thor is also useful in brawls or against the average poptarting Highlander if you switch to reactive.

Oh, and the recycle time on ERLL (and LL) is 5 seconds. wink.gif
Grendel
Never underestimate the value of a light mech for anti-tart duty. The speed is an obvious advanage, but even more important is their smaller size. Not only are they harder to hit, but they can use cover that would leave larger mechs exposed.

While a light mech cannot take on a full-blown nest of snipers, taking out a single tart is surprisingly easy. Either he'll be energy heavy and likely to overheat, or gauss heavy and thus not so accurate against close-in, fast and small targets.

Against multiple poptarts, distraction ability is a good thing. They have to pay attention, as any pilot who's been in-game more than a few hours knows that an unattended light will, eventually, kill things. While the light runs around being a pain, your bigger mechs move to positions appropriate to their loadouts.
Gwydion
Yeah lights are fun for disrupting the 'tarts. My personal favorite for this type of duty is an artillery beacon Raven. No flamers, they telegraph your intent. It's great fun to watch a big ol' Gladbag do a faceplant about 7 seconds after ignoring my shot (I disguise the arty with some streaks). In all honesty you won't get a ton of kills doing this, the first person you nail will probably inform his team what you are up to and they'll start moving around more when you appear, but it can take them out of their gameplan, and getting them moving and distracted is a good first step to helping the rest of your team knock them out of their entrenched positions.
Wadmaasi
QUOTE (Gwydion @ Jul 26 2004, 03:28 PM)
the first person you nail will probably inform his team what you are up to

So...what you're saying is...they'll tell 'em it came from behind???
Gwydion
That's the second time you've brought that up (the first being when you changed my title from "I've got a problem here" to what it says now). Has it occurred to you that Porkins didn't say that? Here's what he said:
QUOTE
"Red Six standing by."

"I'm right with you, Red Three."

"I've got a problem here."

"I can handle it."

"No, I'm all right. Aaaaarrrrrgh!!!


I believe the "It came from behind" line was spoken by Gold Five, just before Vader got him (from behind). POW.gif
js_iic
hmm..........


longtoms are the best way to kill a sniper, or a Death Squad n00b in TD, when they run behind their spawn and shutdown

hola from KaoS, TB
Gwydion
QUOTE (js_iic @ Jul 28 2004, 12:29 AM)
longtoms are the best way to kill a sniper

hola from KaoS, TB

Hola!

Preaching to the converted js, we've got a lot of LT afficionados here at Banzai. We even used them against you guys in a TBR match once (though you were well outside of your spawn and damn near in ours). It worked...for a little while anyway. wink.gif
Eric123
ph34r.gif to be a sniper you need to be super quit
TigMaster
QUOTE (Eric123 @ Nov 2 2004, 12:43 PM)
ph34r.gif  to be a sniper you need to be super quit

blink.gif Huh?? What's quitting have to do with it?
Corin
I would enjoy poptart killing practice

my two cents is this, get a flea(or something as fast) and put one huge weapon on it, then go as fast as u can for the poptarter, and try to run around anything bigger then you (well maybe not trees, but u get the idea) hopefully ull get to point blank range alive, then aim for their heads, if u get lucky ull knock out all those sensors and crap they got up there. smile.gif
Spiral
Good luck with that. rolleyes.gif
Thylacine
HUGE eek13.gif ???
Wookiebear
It seems to me that a mixed group works fairly well when trying to kill pop tarts. We tried this a while back at a local convention lan party with some good results. What we used follows

The group I was with used a long range group (3 mechs with LRM/AC2/RAC2/Gaus) to keep them rocking and a close in group (3 mechs again) that moved in under cover to TRY to take them out. We weren't very good, but it did seem to take them out of their game. Might be worth a try by better pilots than we tongue.gif

Wookiebear

Oh yeah, I would be willing to help with the carnage (I do die well ya know)....... when I finaly get back online. It ain't pretty when the modem goes down in the wookie household, no sireee


Wookiebear
Zephyr
An art of ours over at TB known as Long-Tom-Fu. The thing with poptarts is that they dont move very much, so they make for great LT targets, startic targets = free kills when you are running a longtom config.
VASH
um, if i could make a suggestion. uzis with heavy large lasers and lbx 10s. use their hill against them and "pop snipe" at close range. it get kills for your points in TB and it hurts!! resy runs that one with great results. i keep moving, i keep them shooting at me. i always take mech that lay down some smak for the sniping mechs. oh and most range mech have no leg armor.
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