Hello everybody and good evening,

there is still some stuff in the damage system of MW I don't quite get ... so I ask

- C/U/AC and LBX-Spread: Is this more calculated after where all the "bullets" you see hit or
are they just "graphics" and the damage and where it is caused is calculated in some other way?
I did some "tests" (after reading the AC vs. LBX thread) with a bot and an AC10 and managed to "spread" the
damage over two locations, but very seldom - more often with the LBX.

- Does MW have "critical hits" as BT? Sometimes I was hit by stuff and was sure I lost weapons although
no area was black (not 100% sure now) - and when using cuac2 boats it also seemed that oppenents did loose
weapons more often "than usual". (Should've taken screenshots, darn).

- Real lagging players (not lag boats): Do they just "warp" sometimes, but shots on them register normally,
or can you sometimes cause no damage to the lagging player? 'Cause very often I saw people saying "lag",
when nothing unusal seemed to happen ... at least shots on me seemed to register very well and caused knock.

- Knock: Is the "knock animation" when an enemy you did just hit "ducks away" for a short time always
the same, even if only light knock is caused or does it indicate a "heavy" knock which really throws the
aim of the hit player off? => I hope someone understands what is meant here

- Are the hit locations on a mech the same as shown on the mechs "damage indicator thingie"
when you pilot it - so, can you find out where the locations are just by hopping into each mech and looking at it?
Or is it "just for show"?

Thanks for any input

- LBX lose damage depending on range ... UACs may hit two separate panels due to "2 rounds", ACs are one shot only and should hit only one panel (except maybe when boated? ie. AC #1 hits panel #1 and AC #2 hits panel #2).

- i think critical hits are simulated too, as i don't always get the same results. ie. having both LT/RT weapons, and both LT/RT are damaged big time ... one torso lost its weapon and the other one did not. So i think there's a random factor thrown in there somewhere.

- lag / warping: client says mech's in coord(x,y) while server says that same mech is in coord(a,. If another client (ie. opponent mech) shoots coord(x,y) ... he misses, but if he shoots coord(a, its registered as a hit. I believe this is for ballistics or lead time weapons. Point and shoot weapons just plain hits everytime it hits in the client-sdie.

- "knock animation" -> i did try to use this before, but failed miserably. The knock animation i see is from the client-side only ... and is in no way the actual knocking phase / time for the opponent. Just time grouped shots in .5 to 1 second intervals (good chained knock on opponent).

- Yes (80% sure), all those different panels are actually the hit areas. I think someone posted the hit locations before, don't know from which guide though ... i think its in the brawler guide.

LBX dont spread damage over the mech like in Btech instead they lose damage over range as Tamaraw said.

There is armour and internals in mech4 but they don't give any clear indications of where they start and end on the graphs ... generally if you are in the flahsing red you are on the internals (perhaps even just the red), so sometimes you will retain a weapon for a long period of time by pure luck or lose it on a lucky strike.

Not sure on the knock ... the more damage you do the more it knocks em is all i know ... get hit but a Tbolt Cluster round and you know it.

Tam has got the rest spot on.

... I just tried again against a bot, and altough a hit is indicated on several locations, the damage on most of
them seems very minimal, one location takes the "big hurt" - and even if AC bullets "wander" over
to the target, only one location gets hit - the bullet stream is just for show, it seems



ouch ... triple arrow kodiak comes to mind ...



Thanks for your answers, that helped.

About UAC hitting the same panel ... try hitting a mech with that moves laterally fast against your mech. And watch the HTAL carefully.

There will come a time wherein you'll hit two different panels. This is the reason why UACs are better against big and slow targets, both shells hit the same panel.

And i think there's another thread for this too

there is also damage transferrance as well. Especially on the "extra" locations. For example, removing the missile pods on MKII's and madcats will sometimes removed side-torso weapons.

As is evidenced here by the loss of my Bushie's Missle pod. This is only the second time it happened, but it's still irritating.

Hehehe, gotta love damage transfers. I remember getting hit clean CT in my Hunchi and losing my HGauss more than thrice already!

Random events is pretty cool too

Now this may be a NOOB question from the git go but I 've got to ask. Say for example I've got a representation of 32 points of armor in a specific location and lets call that location "left torso" and I remember what Gwydion said about no single shot (alpha strike) will kill a mech (believe his example was a head shot and it takes 2 at a minimum). Am I to understand that if I manage to strike the same location "left torso" twice in a row with a weapon (alpha strike) that exceeds the 32 points then the mech is dead?
Reason I ask is I must understand the damage points inflicted and how to maximize my strikes. I patiently work toward and wait for the good shots thinking that if I smack the same area correctly then ammo is saved (longer time in the field) and it improves my gunnery.
If the damage turns out to be somewhat random and spread over a larger area of "left torso" than I see in the reticle and the real way to succeed is to just hit em with all you got as many times as you can without regard to "left torso" accuracy then I've got to switch tactics.

Tig

"no single shot (alpha strike) killing a mech" ??????

Then I must be doing something wrong. Many times I have been running along trying to get into the battle when BLAMMMMM! I get hit and hear the little magic words that are for ever burned into my brain "leg damaged, reverse disabled, BOOOM". And I don't even think they hit me in the leg. No damage to this point (having just respawned from the last explosion).

I believe in the single shot alpha strike kill. Never dealt one out but have been on the receiving end of such many many times.

Gwydion said it, I gotta believe it cause he's the lawyer.

*Runs off to find a lawyer - mumbling if they alpha strike and I die and Gwydion said it wouldn't happen then there must be grounds for a lawsuit, "hmmmm wonder if I can get enough for a shiney new Ryoken"

... if I remember correctly, he was just referring to head shots?

Personally, I believe in this damage spread phenomenon you speak of. In fact I am firmly behind the belief of spreading as much damage as I can. Damage for all! Come to me my little mechs, I have damage for all of you!

I tought "damage spread" is something i put in my sandwich

***

About one shot kills. There is a one trigger pull kill, ie. using different weapon types in the same alpha.

Yet another undocumented trick. Thanks!

I knew there were one shot kills, having been on the receiving end of them many times.

it's not really 1 SHOT kills, as 1 TRIGGERPULL kills... the key is having the damage from yoru alpha arive at different times.

This is both correct and incorrect. There are two separate phenomena at work here, and some confusion about what's going on.

First, a pair of definitions:

• A scanline weapon is one where your bullet/laser/etc instantly hits whatever you're pointing at when you pull the trigger. This has nothing to do with the "real world," and solely has to do with how the weapon was designed to function in the game. Examples of scanline weapons include all lasers in MW4/BK/Mercs, the sniper laser in TRIBES/TRIBES2, and the machine gun in Quake 3. These kinds of weapons do not require leading; you pull the trigger, the server says "the barrel of your weapon was pointed here at the time of firing," and your weapon strikes that location instantaneously. (Now, of course we all know that lag/latency can make it look like you were pointed at your target and you still "missed" because the server says your target wasn't really there, but that's a completely different discussion and will be ignored.)
  
• A projectile weapon is one where the weapon fires a round of some type that has to actually travel the in-game distance between your firing location and your target. Sometimes the game takes into consideration things like your own motion as well (the TRIBES games' spinfusors is a good example of this), and the game will always take into account the motion of your target when deciding whether or not your shot hits. Examples include every non-laser weapon in MW4/BK/Mercs, the TRIBES games' plasma cannons, and the rocket launcher in Quake 3. These kinds of weapons require leading; you have to aim to one side of your target or another so that your target is going to intersect your shot as they both travel in time.
  

Phenomena One
You can get a 1 triggerpull kill against a 'Mech's Head or Center Torso sections by pairing weapons with different travel speeds in the same firing group, so that the damage isn't all done simultaneously. These can be a combination of any weapons types, so long as they have different travel times (lasers and guns, guns and missiles, lasers and missiles, etc). With the damage spread out over time, so that not all the damage is applied in the same instant, you can get a 1 "shot" kill with a single triggerpull. A good 'Mech for testing this in a brawling situation is a Victor with 2CLBX20s, 7ML, and 2SSRM6. You're covering all the bases here; the ML act as scanline weapons doing some damage instantly, then the projectile CLBX20s hit right after (punching a huge hole into your target), and then the projectile Streak6s start hitting (and each missile does damage over a separate instant in time, since they come out in a trail and not one clump like an LRM5). I've one-triggerpulled many a Daishi with this bad boy by getting (lucky) headshots.

Phenomena Two
You can also get a true 1 shot kill if you do enough damage to a 'Mech's Left or Right Torso that you manage to punch through the armor, wipe out the internals, and transfer enough "left over" damage to the 'Mech's Center Torso internals to kill it. A good way to test this is to put a level 0 bot in an Uller or other Light 'Mech with Ferro Fibrous armor, then take a Mad Cat or other 6+ERLL 'Mech and aim for the Uller's side torsos. The combined damage done by the massed ERLL, all striking the same spot at the same instant, melts away all the FF, scours out the side torso internals, and then reaches through from the side to the Center Torso's internals to scoop all of them out with a dull spoon. It's quite satisfying, actually, especially if you're playing flag D in CTF. (= Theoretically you should be able to get 1 shot kills of this type against someone with weak leg armor, but I've never tested to see whether or not legs are protected from magic bullet kills the same way that CTs and Heads are.

Your probably right Wad, I was thinking one triggerpull kills but manys been the time I went to leg a light and he went KABOOM instead when hitting him with 3lbx20s and 3 mdlsrs

There still seems to be some residual confusion over damage spread and damage transfer, and how they work in the game; I wish I'd seen this thread when it was started. It's late, and I'm tired, so this is going to be long and rambling, but I guarantee good info for anyone who reads all of it. (=

Damage spread is done by missles, UACs, and by firing lasers and guns/missiles at the same time. First, missiles generally tend to strike different portions of the 'Mech, with the majority of the damage concentrated on whatever part of the 'Mech your reticle was on when you pulled the trigger. (This is explained in great detail in Smokin' Onion's Fire Support Guide.) Second, it is also caused by the two separate shells fired by all UAC weapons fired at a laterally-moving target, so that the first shell strikes panel A, then the target has moved a hair and the second shell strikes panel B. Third, in a situation very similar to the second, when firing a laser and a gauss weapon at the same time, the laser strikes under your reticle instantly while the gauss round has to travel through the game world, by which point you target has moved and the shot strikes a different panel.

Damage transfer is a completely different effect. This is literally what it sounds like: excess damage done to one location that has been completely destroyed transferring to the adjacent section. Damage transfer can occur either after the section being hit has already been destroyed, or as the section being hit takes more damage than it has armor+criticals remaining and the "left over" damage transfers. Damage transfer can be done in several different ways:

1. From the Left or Right Torso to the Center Torso
   
2. From Special One or Special Two (the ear-pods on a Mad Cat, the chin-turret on a Vulture, the Hunchback's big shoulder autocannon, etc. etc.) to the Left, Right, or Center Torso
   
3. From the Left Leg to the Right Leg (and vice versa)

Damage transfer is a vitally important part of the game, and even after 4 years of MechWarrior4 is still poorly understood by many veteran players. Every 'Mech's Center Torso can carry more armor than the Left or Right Torsos, and the Legs can carry more armor than even the Center Torso. Underneath the armor that you can put on or take off in the MechLab, and switch between Ferro Fibrous\Reflective\Reactive, is a fixed amount of internal structure armor (the 'Mech's skeleton) that doesn't change. (Big 'Mechs have more internal structure armor points than small 'Mechs, of course.) Each 'Mech has a Standard or an EndoSteel skeleton, and the difference is very important when talking about damage transfer.

In general, a 'Mech with a Standard skeleton has less free tonnage available for weapons than a 'Mech with an EndoSteel skeleton. The tradeoff for this, though, is that a 'Mech with an EndoSteel skeleton transfers much more damage; the actual numbers are only 25% transfer for Standard, but a whopping 75% for EndoSteel. What does that mean? Let's examine.

We'll use nice round numbers for a pure-math theoretical example. We'll say that the target 'Mech has 100 points of Ferro Fibrous armor on its Left and Right Torsos and 50 points of internal structure in the same locations. Then we'll give it 150 points of Center Torso Ferro Fibrous armor and 100 internal structure points. Let's say I have an unusually huge 100-damage Alpha Strike and I pop the target squarely in the Left Torso. The 100 points of damage match the 100 points of Ferro Fibrous, and the armor disappears, but my target hasn't suffered any internal damage yet. I hit the target in the Left Torso again with all 100 points of my Alpha, and of course the 50 points of internal structure aren't enough to absorb the damage. We subtract the 50 points of internal structure armor, leaving another 50 points of damage that has to go somewhere; it transfers to the Center Torso. Not to the CT's armor, since I've already cut inside the Ferro Fibrous on the Left Torso, but rather to the CT's own internal structure. If the target 'Mech has an EndoSteel skeleton, 75% of the 50 points transfer to the CT's internal structure, so we subtract 37.5 from the 100 points of internal structure at the CT, leaving 62.5 points left. If I manage to hit the target a third time in the Left Torso, then 75 points are going to transfer, overwhelming the 62.5 and killing the 'Mech.

If the same 'Mech had had a Standard skeleton, the second shot would have taken out all 50 points of the internal structure, but of the remaining 50 points of damage only 12.5 points would have transferred to the CT's internal structure, leaving it with 87.5 points. Following the same pattern, with only 25 points of damage per Alpha Strike transferring to the Center Torso's internal structure, it would take me four more shots into the Left Torso to reach the amount of transferred damage it would require to finish off the target.

Bear in mind that the numbers never work out this cleanly in the game, but this why it's easier to kill a Thanatos through the Left or Right Torsos but not a Thor. The Thanatos has an EndoSteel skeleton (not to mention broad side torso and a slim CT) while the Thor has a Standard skeleton.

Now, to heap even more confusion on top of things, we have the damage transfer that's done by the Specials. A Mad Cat's ear-pods have about 40 or 45 points of armor each on them; if you hit one of the pods with 50 points of damage all the left over damage is going to transfer to the corresponding side torso's internal structure. And, since the MW4 games do model critical hits against weapons when you damage the internal structure, it's entirely possible that you'll crit out a weapon in the side torso omnipod, if there's one there. Always always always, when facing a Mad Cat or a Mad Cat Mk II, take the shot at the ear if that's the only one you can get; you might get lucky and nibble away at his firepower. The same holds true for the Hauptman's gunrack or the Daishi's missilepod. This is why James the Dark's Bushy keeps losing that CLBX10 that's "safely" tucked away in his Center Torso; if you look at the screenshot, his HTAL on the lower-right has an empty "S1" bar. His Bushy's missile rack got shot off, and the excess damage it was hit with transferred to his CT's internal structure and the game rolled a crit against his CLBX10. Suckage. )= But them's the breaks. (=

I should keep quiet here (so players will keep shooting my ears) ... but there are no damage transfers for shooting Catapults ears

Or i really haven't encountered it yet ... i've played alot of 3 LargeX Catapult and got my ears shredded in the first few minutes of the game. But my LT, RT and CT remains intact ... i think this is an exemption to Wad's general rule. And its a good thing too ... because it would be real easy to disarm a Catapult if those ears can generate damage transfers too.

That's because a Catapult's "ears" are its Right and Left Arms, not Specials; check the MechLab. There's no damage transfer from destroyed arms, which is different from pencil'n'paper BattleTech.

3 informative, non-turd posts from Wad in a row....

Who are you and what have you done with Wad

Woah. Thanks Wad. That explains everything and its crystal clear to me now.

Another reason why I prefer the CUAC10, boated. If you put both shots on, it will alpha kill any light or medium and many heavies.

Thats just evil!

Flares for shiv and trouts for Brewder!

Brewder has used that many times on me. Just a innocent little light mech taking a nice peacful stroll around a map enjoying the scenery when WAM! out of no where Brewder nails me with a single alpha and destroys my nice little mech.

EVIL I TELL YOU! EVIL! My little light mech never did him any harm. (well not all in one shot)

Well, this thread's been dead for a loong time, but I've been playing around with different ways of killing the Ares and noticed some more things about damage transfer. If you shoot the side torsos on any mech out (completely black), and then continue shooting the dead section, the mech blows up. I did this with a large x-pulse laser and nibbled away at the dead section to see when the mech would blow up- and with the Ares it exploded before half the armor on the CT was transferred away. A similar thing happens with the legs; if you shoot one leg off and keep shooting it, you can kill the mech before it's other leg is halfway gone. Apparently these sections have internal structure that transfers damage but also loses damage points itself at the same time, killing the mech when it's gone. This probably is nothing new to a lot of people, but it has come in very handy for killing the Ares. Legging is already popular against the Ares, but shooting the side torsos out has a similar effectiveness. The Ares also has a bug that allows the rear torso to be hit from the front (somewhere near the bottom of the missile rack, and I think slightly towards the sides); unfortunately it's about as hard to hit as the head. I hope this comes in handy for people frustrated with the Ares.

leg the ares repeatedly.

Since this thread was "reactivated," I'll correct some of the information noted above by Wad. All of his analyses regarding damage transfer were correct, but his figures for the transfer rates of the two types of internal structure were not. Based on some other Lobby threads here, and a recent MekTek thread, it looks like Endo internals transfer 100% of damage, whereas the heavier Standard structure transfers only either 75% or 85% (not sure which due to conflicting information).

CC, however, is entirely correct - leg the Ares.